Oded Ben Ami: Are the Haredim about to cause a crisis in the coalition? Does Minister Yitzhak Goldknopf intend to resign from the government and vote against the budget? Following the announcement that 14,000 conscription orders will be sent to the Haredim very soon, given the fact that the conscription law has not been drafted, and the issue of funding for the dormitories has not yet been settled, there is a feeling of crisis...
I want to ask you, Minister, first of all, tell me if this is a correct feeling, that the Haredi representatives in the Knesset are as if they live on some other planet? We have been here for 17 months in a state of fighting, war, the threats have not yet been removed, but there is no intention or willingness to enlist and take part in the burden.
Sherry Roth: Why do you think there is no willingness? I am in the Foreign Affairs and Security Committee hearings, the Haredim are ready for some kind of conscription law, as long as it is promoted! That is exactly what they want, by the way. When Golknopf says I will resign if there is no conscription law, he wants a conscription law that will conscript Haredim.
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Ben Ami: But there are still rabbis, leaders of the Haredi sector, who say, 'We will die rather than be drafted'! Throw away the orders...
Sari: Today, when there is no law! Even Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef, who says this, says it today because there is no law, but as soon as there is a law, and the Haredi public commits to a certain number, a certain quota of Haredim who will actually enlist, then Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef will not say that, he will check that the army is indeed preparing units that are suitable for Haredim, which the army does seem to be trying to do - with 'Hasmonaim' and such - and then he will say 'Anyone who does not truly follow his Torah and his beliefs should go and enlist,' because otherwise he is detracting from the share of those who do sit and study.
Today, because there is no law, there is actually no way for the state to exempt someone who sits and studies seriously, so what the rabbis say is that even his brother - who does not sit and study, for the sake of his brother, will be a martyr and will not actually go to the military.
Encouraged: Rabbi Yair Paran...
Paran: This is cheap demagogy, I'm sorry to say, it's really hard to hear it now. This is not about a conscription law, this is about a conscription exemption law, we all know that. And when Shari sits here and says that if they pass this law, then the Haredi public will calm down, this is about a law that, if they exempt 70-80, I don't know how many percent of this public from conscription, and maybe in another 7 years they will reach a quota of 50 percent of the Haredi public who will conscript, then maybe, so now if they sit quietly, thank you very much. The responsibility here is both on the Haredi public who must stand up and do something, it's time to end this disgrace, and also on the Zionist public.
If this government falls on the draft law, we are happy that we fell, and I am not, it has nothing to do with it at all, right, left, it doesn't matter. There is a value order of priorities here that must change in this country, and this order of priorities that first of all we maintain our security, and there are values here that we are all together against our enemies, and only then a coalition game of thrones, this is the order of priorities that needs to be clear here, and this is what the Haredi public is also responsible for. Stand up now and do something and stop with this nonsense and these lies, and also the Israeli governments, the members of the Knesset who are responsible for this thing.
Shari: Yair, you really convinced yourself...I'm sure you're encouraged too... But!...
Faran: No, I also convinced a lot of people at home...
Shari: But! But! My Haredi neighbor, he doesn't ask Rabbi Yair Paran when he has a question, he asks Rabbi Dov Lando, Rabbi Hirsch... The fact that you're sitting here and saying 'nonsense' about things their rabbis told them, won't convince them.
Paran: Their rabbis are blasphemers, and when there is blasphemy, they show no respect for the rabbi.
Sherry: I can't hear those words, I don't talk like that about your rabbis, Yair, nor about you.
Paran: No respect for the rabbi!
Sherry: Respect every rabbi!
Paran: I respect them for the Torah they learned, and they are blaspheming the heavens by saying that during a time of war, you can sit at home.
Sherry: I wasn't listening, I didn't hear what you said...
Oded: I want to ask a question about the rabbis for a moment. I understand that there is not a unified opinion among all the rabbis, because I am beginning to feel that even within what we call the 'ultra-Orthodox sector', there are rabbis who say this, there are rabbis who say otherwise, there is no unanimity of opinion.
Sherry: There's the question of tactics...
Oded: And even in the votes, probably not everyone will vote together.
Sari: There is the question of tactics. The tactics ask like this: Should we threaten? Is it right to threaten? There are rabbis who say no to threats, the rabbis of Degel Hatorah say no to threats regarding the conscription law, the Rebbe of Belz says no to threats, the Rebbe of Gur believes yes, that his man does need to be threatened. This is a question of tactics, I won't get into that. Everyone who listens to their rabbis, respectfully, whoever listens to Rabbi Yair Paran, will listen to Rabbi Yair Paran, whoever listens to Rabbi Dov Lando, will listen to him, but let's not slander rabbis, one against the other's rabbis.
Faran: No, no, there is responsibility, there is responsibility...
Sherry: Be respectful... I didn't hear what you said, I didn't listen, I didn't listen...
Paran: It's not interesting, there is a responsibility. There is a responsibility for every man and woman, that when the people of Israel are in trouble, they should come and help. If I am called up again and again to the reserves...
Sherry: That's your opinion...
Paran: This is my opinion and this is the opinion of many in the Israeli public...
Sherry: Right.
Paran: And anyone who doesn't share this opinion can't receive budgets here, can't receive subsidies for dormitories here, and belongs in prison!
Sari: And again you're talking about the question of tactics. How to bring the Haredim to the KKOM? You say, we'll beat them with whips and scorpions, they'll come to prison.
Faran: With personal sanctions, yes.
Minister: With personal sanctions, and we will beat them, and they will not be able to leave the country...
Paran: Yes, there is a state of law!
Sherry: And their children will starve to death, I'll give you a list.
Faran: Yes! Whoever breaks the law should be in prison! That's what it should be, Shari!
Sari: And then, Yair, will they come to enlist?... So! You beat them, you targeted them, you did it to them, they will come to enlist?
Faran: It's their responsibility!
Sherry: They won't, they won't come!
Faran: I don't understand this argument, Sherry, you repeat it over and over again.
Sherry: Let's be smart...
Paran: A person crosses a red light, we give him a fine, so will that make him not cross a red light?
Sherry: Yes, yes, of course it is, it is a deterrent.
Paran: I don't know, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, in a state of law there is a law. And whoever breaks the law cannot receive budgets from the state and belongs in prison! It needs to be said!
Sherry: Prison, and their children will starve to death...
Faran: They won't die of hunger, I didn't wish that on anyone, not to say that.
Sherry: It's a shame, you prepared a good unit, the 'Hasmonaim', let's fill it with Haredim who don't study.
Faran: We will fill it.
Sherry: How? How do you convince? There is no conscription law...
Paran: We'll also fill it with Haredim who study! That's a lie! That's a lie, Sherry, and we can't tell the lie anymore!
Sherry: No, you don't have to shout.
Oded: How do you convince? Let's try to explain for a moment.
Shari: How do you convince? They make a draft law. Rabbis come out and say, whoever doesn't really study, has, as Rabbi Shach said, a 'persecuting' law, because he is essentially slandering those who do sit and study, and they deserve to be exempted from draft.
Every mother tells her sons what I told my sons: If you were exempted from conscription, you need to study seriously! And if it's not serious, you're criminals, because the state actually sent you. There are people, including soldiers, who believe in it, that you study - it keeps them on the battlefield. You may not believe in it, you may believe in it, but there are soldiers who go out to the battlefield and believe in it. You need to fulfill your duty from morning to night seriously!
Then allow those who don't study seriously, give them tracks, the army tries, does 'Hasmonaim', does things, does this, but without a conscription law, with each side yelling at the other and beating the other, we won't get anywhere...
Oded: Yair, is there a way? Is there a way to convince to fill the ranks?
Paran: Of course, I say this all the time. We also need to act wisely, and we need to know how to act behind the scenes, and the Hasmonean Brigade cannot be itself a bluff anymore. And if we said that a Haredi guy should enter the Haredi army and leave it Haredi, that's what I believe, the framework really should allow that. And if we promised that he would have a certain service vacation and certain kosher food and time to study Torah, we need to allow that. And we need to talk about the hearts of the public leaders.
But at the same time, it is impossible to give up the simple legal sanctions, because in a country ruled by law, anyone who breaks the law belongs in prison. It's simple, and that's how it should be. And not laws of exemptions that discriminate between blood and blood.
Oded: It will be very interesting to follow and see where the Haredi representatives in the Knesset are going, where the conscription law is going, and especially where we are all going. We need to unite the ranks together.
Sherry: Together!
