Matan Khudorov: A very brave fight, in my opinion, by a group of Haredi women against their exclusion from the public sphere. After they were forbidden to sit at the front of the bus, we already remember that, Haredi female passengers recently discovered a directive from rabbis in Ashdod to refrain from talking even inside the bus. So that their voices would not be heard, God forbid, in the company of the men who are there. So the person who is compiling the testimonies and complaints of Haredi women is Tzipi Lavi, an activist, feminist, Haredi... Did I define it more or less correctly?
Tzipi Lavie: Very true.
Matan: So what happened there in Ashdod that made the lives of the Haredi female passengers unbearable?
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Tzipi: So on Thursday, the ultra-Orthodox women of Ashdod stood up to a petition that was published in the city, and signed by several of the city's rabbis, many of the city's rabbis...
Sherry Roth: This is a 'call to arms', this is not a pashkvil (- a pashkvil is an unsigned proclamation, the 'call to arms' is signed by rabbis and rebbes).
Tzipi: A 'call to arms' written on paper.
Matan: Okay, 'Kol Kora', Shari corrects us. (Reading from 'Keria Kodesh'): "In these difficult times when we need abundant mercy from Heaven and supreme protection from all our enemies from without and within, we hereby raise several points regarding the behavior of women and the rules of modesty required of the public who fear the word of God.
A. It was recently reported that women are riding scooters (especially electric ones) as well as go-karts. We would like to announce that this is against the rules of modesty and every woman and girl over the age of nine is prohibited from using these vehicles, let alone bicycles.
B. On buses from the halls (to this day), complaints are coming in from the youths that, even though women sit in the back of the bus, they speak and converse among themselves loudly in a manner that is contrary to the ways of modesty, and women must remember that they are in the same place with the people and be careful with proper modesty and speak quietly.".
And so the expectation is, what, Tzipi, that women will simply shut up?
Tzipi: This is just part of the Pashkville, because there is also the part that requires women not to ride scooters and the part that calls on business owners not to employ women who are dressed immodestly, and this is in continuation of the fact that a week earlier, one of the cashiers at a supermarket in Beit Shemesh was roared at by a group of men who entered and shouted at her, "Whore," "Whore.".
Matan: But tell me, rabbis have been guiding the residents of Haredi neighborhoods for many years. What happened now, for example in Ashdod, that caused them to 'refine' in quotation marks the already strict guidance that was there even before on the bus?
Tzipi: Regarding the buses, this is a question, apparently someone got on the bus and was a little bothered by the noises that came up...
Matan: And that's it? Is that enough for a group of ultra-Orthodox rabbis to get together and issue stricter guidelines?
Tzipi: It turns out that yes, it's something that surprises me too and it surprises the Haredi women in Ashdod too. I received this pashkavil from a Haredi woman in Ashdod, who made me swear not to tell who she was, because what she might absorb from society threatens her. But despite being Haredi, mainstream and all, she feels that this thing actually limits her steps.
Matan: Sherry, do you see any halachic logic here or is this pure abuse on the part of those rabbis?
Shari: Listen, I'm asking myself for a moment, wait, do I live in the same society that Tzipi lives in? Listen. I live in a city that is more Haredi than Ashdod, more of a Haredi 'stronghold', in Kiryat Sefer. No one threatens me, and no one has told me where to sit...
Matan: Maybe it's because you're a well-connected journalist...
Shari: No, no, listen. I myself find myself calling the rabbis, several times a week, about all sorts of questions. To drink coffee, because I don't feel well and have some kind of pain, about fasting, or all sorts of things. The fact that the rabbis are issuing a 'call to arms', they didn't force it, they didn't impose it, there are no police enforcing it, it's like telling me that there is a Torah scroll with 613 laws. So the rabbis say: Listen, they told us that there is such and such. For example, I don't shout on the bus, just as I don't shout in the studio, because I think one should behave in a respectful manner.
Matan: There is a difference between the manners and conduct that we practice in our private lives and the guidance of rabbis.
Sherry: Do you know what this reminds me of? Imagine a language in the studio, during a broadcast, how many of us would regularly talk to each other, I assume a manager... is there a manager here?... I don't know if there is one here but it doesn't matter... when there is a manager...
Matan: Good question, by the way...
Shari: When a manager is appointed, he will write a letter and say: Listen, gentlemen, there is a phenomenon here that is not right, stop talking. That's all.
Uri Misgav: Is it wrong for women to speak? Haredi women, are they not allowed to speak?
Sherry: In my opinion, it's also not right for men to shout, I think we should behave respectfully...
Sharon Kidon: But it didn't work out for men, only for women.
Sherry: If there are rabbis who think it's wrong for women to shout, and for everyone to hear their dialogue and their words, I also think it's disrespectful, by the way... then they write! They don't force!
Matan: Tzipi, you hear the things, which are actually not that bad, they just ask that they speak more quietly.
Tzipi: So I want to tell you something about this. A directive from rabbis that comes out, you know what that means. Let's not get carried away here, the meaning of a directive from rabbis in the Haredi sector is enforcement.
Sherry: How? How do you enforce? Tell me how. Because I don't know anything about enforcement. Knocking on people's doors? Absolutely not, and I've been in the Haredi community for more years than I've ever been...
Tzipi: Still without any guidance from rabbis, okay? When the whole issue of sitting in the back of the bus was only a very massive campaign...
Sherry: This, by the way, is only in the Hasidic sector.
Tzipi: That's right, a very, very extremist community in Beit Shemesh that launched a nationwide campaign, 'Women in, Men ahead,' which led to women being harassed on a daily basis, having to move backwards...
Sherry: Then that's not right!
Tzipi: Of course it's not okay! I don't think you're saying it's okay.
Matan: I want to ask you: To what extent do you feel that the behavior among those Haredi women towards the new decrees, in Ashdod, Beit Shemesh, and other places, is strong? To what extent is this the beginning of a rebellion against the Haredi establishment?
Tzipi: That's exactly the point. It's clear to me that at the beginning of the process, most of them will object, certainly those whose rabbis are not rabbis they follow, spiritually speaking, it's clear to me that at first the absolute majority will object and continue to do whatever they want, but slowly this could become socially normalized and become a prohibition. Like any other prohibition.
Matan: Can you give some examples of similar struggles that you wage in the name or on behalf of the rights of Haredi women in the public sphere?
Tzipi: Yes, I have many struggles and I won't start listing them, but I will mention one specific thing that is also related to this matter: A while ago, a friend of mine was harassed in a very, very extreme way on the bus because she was sitting in the front, not even sitting, standing, and this was after a series of harassments that I and other friends of mine also posted on social media, a lot of harassment, but that harassment broke my back, so to speak, and I decided to start compiling all the stories I hear and collecting more stories into a book, so that people like Shari, who really don't believe that these things happen, because it didn't happen to them...
Sherry: I didn't say I don't believe! Not only do I believe, but we also report on our website when it happens! When harassed, we report it! We report on the 'Haredim 10' website about harassment, about indecent acts, we are against it! Just friends, no one forced a Haredi woman to be part of the Haredi sector!
Tzipi: What you're saying now is that a woman who doesn't want to be harassed at the front of the bus doesn't want to be part of the Haredi sector.
Sherry: No! I'm saying I'm against harassing!
Tzipi: I protest! Against this statement! This is a serious statement!
Sherry: I say no harassment! No indecent acts! I am against violence in any form or way!
Tzipi: So a woman who wants to sit up front without being bothered is not part of the sector?
Sherry: No need to bother her! But Tzipi, if there's a community that wants to make a bus that says, let's say, the first benches are for men, I respect that.
Tzipi: Not on a public bus!
Uri Misgav: Why do you respect that?
Sherry: Leave a public moment or not, as an ultra-Orthodox woman, I don't think at all in this direction of 'Come on, let's rebel,' I come, I say: 'Okay, it's more comfortable for these men, I'll sit in the back.'.
Tzipi: A woman is nauseous in the back and she wants to sit in the front!
Matan: Razi Barkai sits here quietly and seething...
Razi Barkai: Sherry, I hear your voice, I've learned to like you in recent months, we're sitting here...
Sherry: Thank you, Razi. Is this in the spirit of Tisha B'Av or is it suitable for any day?
Razi: No, not at all. But I can't believe you're advocating for this primitive worldview.
Sherry: Razi, rabbis believe this is halakha!
Razi: Sherry, what is 'this is Halacha'?
Shari: I'm not a rabbi! These are rabbis!
Razi: This halacha is primitive!
Sherry: Razi, it's gone, it's gone, it's gone!
Razi: P-R-I-M-I-T-I-B-I-T!
Shari: My rabbis did not write these laws, full disclosure, they are signed by rabbis who are not from my sector, but a rabbi who thinks he has a law to say is saying this to people!
Matan: Your last sentence, Tzipi.
Tzipi: I just want to say to the Haredi women who are watching us right now: The fact that you want not to be bothered and the fact that you want to ride a scooter or anything else, does not make you non-Haredi, you are Haredi even if you want to exist in the public space!
