Keren Neubach: Let's get everything in order with the draft law, which some have defined as the 'non-draft law'... Where does it stand? Where is it going?
Shari Roth: Well, right now, you know, we're on a break, so it's not going anywhere, there are what are called 'consultations.' Now, there's the Hasidic faction of United Torah Judaism, Agudat Israel, which is very strict in its demands from the conscription law, and there's Degel Hatorah, which is a little more pragmatic. It's the one that agreed at the time to the conscription law that Avigdor Lieberman brought when he was defense minister, with a few changes - but it agreed. The Hasidic are the ones who screwed up, and from there we went to endless rounds of elections. Now we're back to the same point.
In recent days, Degel HaTorah has been holding a lot of consultations with rabbis, going out, coming in, bringing drafts, consulting. In the end, the one who will decide, and they haven't been to him yet, is the spiritual leader of Degel, Rabbi Dov Lando, who first sent them to various rabbis to hear and consult. In the end, they will bring him everything they heard and he will be the one who will have the last word. The one who was with him a few days ago, and I think it hasn't been published yet, I'm saying it here with you, is MK Yaakov Asher, who is currently the closest of all the Degel Knesset members to Rabbi Lando and this court. He was with Rabbi Lando a few days ago and heard things from him that aren't published, and I don't say them either. And in general, Knesset members keep everything that is said to them under wraps.
Keren Neubach: But what is the direction?
Sari: The direction will probably be a little more pragmatic than the law that the Hasidic sister will bring, and they still won't go with two heads, meaning that in the end, whoever is the most extreme will decide, and this is actually bad news for Benjamin Netanyahu, because in the end they won't be able to be too flexible with him.
Keren: You know that this sentence of yours, 'In the end, whoever is most extreme will decide,' seems to me to characterize the spirit of the times in general...
Sherry: Yes, that's true.
Keren: Let's say, the issue of segregation. And sorry for jumping in, but we've had several discussions here on the issue of segregation in the media, and ultra-Orthodox women came up here and said, of course we won't go to the pool or the sea without segregation, but we don't go to the springs in segregation, and that's the only place where we can go as a family, so why are you taking us to a more extreme place that we didn't ask for at all? So it's the same thing: as soon as someone represents the most extreme product, they'll probably be the one they go to.
Sari: Look, so first of all, let's talk about the other side. It's no secret that someone like Benny Gantz could be much more pragmatic if it weren't for the protests in the streets, which essentially don't allow him to make concessions that he might want to make. And you know what? It could even be that he would want to enter the Netanyahu government, in order to remove right-wing elements from it. Maybe not all of religious Zionism and Ben-Gvir's party, but elements that wouldn't be willing to bend to some softer platform.
But I don't know if in the current situation on the streets, he can do whatever he wants. There was a proposal by Matan Kahane, which could have been a good proposal in other days, he himself said, but these days it's not so practical. And I think that's a lot because of the protest in the streets, which sets a very extreme marker. For everything. This is probably what will happen to the conscription law as well. That is, even if they want to be flexible, even if, for example, President Herzog has proposals.
Keren: But I want to ask on a principled level...
Sherry: By the way, you're asking about the springs. I don't know which Haredi women you were talking about, but in the groups I'm in and the women I talk to, a lot of Haredi women, and I'm one of them, would like to go with their daughter to the springs, at a separate time. And today that option doesn't exist.
Karen: But then they won't be able to go with their three-year-old son...
Sherry: I'll tell you the truth, Keren, I have sons, and I could never go to the spring with them, because the sights they see there are things they never wanted to see. I can't go to the malls with them either...
Keren: They talked to me about the sightings of mainly men bathing there with very little clothing...
Sherry: I don't know, these aren't my sons, my children would never do anything like that in their lives.
Keren: I don't go to the shows so I don't know, but women here on the show told me.
Shari: And that's why they asked for separation, really. One hour a day or a few hours a day. But forget it, I said here on Channel 2 with Yoav Krakowski, this is the butter, this is not the bread. We will manage without fountains and we manage without a lot of things. It's hard to walk around the malls today, even for me, because of the sights I see there, and certainly for my sons, who won't go in.
Karen: Why is it difficult?
Shari: Look, you want to walk down a city street and look respectable. Let's say, I go to the Knesset, and I've had conversations about this with secular Knesset members. They thank me, when we come to the Knesset we come in appropriate, respectable clothing.
Keren: There is a difference between the Knesset and a street or a mall.
Sherry: Right, and that's why I accept it. And don't say anything. Right, you're right, Keren, we don't say a lot of things. And that's why, I say, even about the springs, I would be silent. I would say, it's not something that's close to my heart, that I couldn't live with. The draft law, that they'll take my son from his yeshiva, that they'll take him by force into the army, when he wants to sit and study, it's something that's close to my heart. And I understand that you won't be able to understand that...
Karen: And if he doesn't study, what should he do?
Shari: Oh, not studying is a different matter! We're not talking about those who don't study! And you know, sometimes I read editorials by all sorts of ultra-Orthodox people who write about the draft law, and I say to myself, in my heart, 'Shut up, you're the ones who don't study, you didn't study in the past, and you didn't enlist either, and you did, I don't know, some kind of mental exemption, some kind of stunt, I don't know what, at least you'll shut up.'
Keren: Do you understand that in principle we need to resolve this situation where young Haredi men are not enlisting, supposedly going to study, even though we know that great sages like those among the secular, are also among the Haredi, after all, no society creates a community of only academics, if we accept Torah study as an academy. A very small percentage is going to be an academic, and thus a very small percentage is going to be scholars. The rest, what should they do?
Sherry: You touch on a point that raises many, many questions even within the Haredi community. And the answer is: Anyone who studies, and no matter what their grades are, 50, 60, 40, 30, 20... studies! Sits and studies. Not a hobby, not a scheme, sits and studies seriously - then you have to sit and study. Because our study is not tested by grades, but by how many times you sat and studied.
Keren: It's not a matter of grades, it's a matter of whether you have the skills...
Shari: I mean, did you sit, or didn't you sit... Now, those who don't sit and study, and walk around the streets, there's a problem here, which, by the way, it's not us who haven't provided a solution to, but the army hasn't been able to do in the years of its existence until today, maybe because it can't, but it's tried to do a lot since then and until today, but there aren't any appropriate frameworks today, that's the truth, the army has a very hard time with this, let's be honest, also budgetary.
Keren: Okay, we've skimmed, let's say hello to Yoav Krakowski. We've skimmed over the topic of the springs and the draft, let's get back to politics, and continue the conversation about the draft another day. Yoav, where does politics stand?
Yoav: I want to say a few things. First of all, regarding the springs issue, I had a very interesting conversation with Shari Roth a few weeks ago on this matter, and I think that in this aspect the legal advisor to the government was simply wrong. Let's first examine what needs to be done, how much demand there is for this matter, and not go straight to legislation.
Keren: No, the one who made a mistake, and intentionally, was Minister Silman, who came and proposed something that she probably wasn't asked to do in order to please a political base.
Yoav: It could very well be.
Keren: So what did she do? She came and said, I'm doing a pilot starting this Sunday. No, come to your office, work on it properly, formulate something, and then go and check how to do a pilot. She knew when she did the pilot that this would be the response of the legal counsel.
Yoav: It could very well be, I'm just saying, that in general, being forced to go to legislation, in three readings, legislation that has an element of inequality, to dirty the law book of the State of Israel with the fear of unequal legislation even before the High Court of Justice has even said that there is a need, is the main distortion and therefore the desire to do a pilot is much more correct.
But let's talk for a moment about the draft law or the non-draft law, over which, Keren, the coalition may really fall apart. Why? Because within the Likud, and I'm not talking about what will happen on the streets, in the Likud! There is opposition to the law now being introduced by the Haredim. And Knesset members and ministers are saying this, even in the close circle of Justice Minister Yariv Levin, who signed these coalition agreements, in their wording, they are saying very clearly, 'What was signed in January, the reality by August has changed.'
The Haredim feel hurt, they didn't want this legal reform in the first place, they weren't interested in the composition of the committee for appointing judges, they weren't interested in anything except for an override clause that would prevent intervention in the draft law, that's the only thing that interested them. And that's exactly what the Prime Minister said, first in English and then in Hebrew, there will be no override clause. And also the fact that Benjamin Netanyahu refuses, along with Yariv Levin, to include a specific override clause in the draft law.
And this is actually the event that is causing at least two factions in Agudat Israel - the one led by Minister Porush and the one led by Minister Goldknopf - both are very extreme - Gur Hasidism can really, and we have already seen it in the past lead, at the time Litzman and now perhaps Goldknopf as well - to crises that could lead to the dissolution of the coalition.
I want to remind you that just on the eve of the budget passing, the ministers of Agudat Yisrael threatened not to vote in the Knesset plenum until they received some kind of token, which in the end actually did not receive anything, but they could at least present to their base that they received something in order to pass the budget. This is a very difficult, very complex, very problematic business.
Keren: Okay, bottom line, now connect this to the story of legal reform. It goes hand in hand... There are also those who say, 'You won't get it if you don't give it'...
Krakowski: So let's say first of all that there will be no legal reform. There is no more legal reform, Keren, and we need to say that very clearly. From October to November, we are only dealing with the conscription law. The coalition already knows - it won't work at the same time. You can't have both. You can have 'either', 'or'. You can't have both things together, it simply won't work. Therefore, there is no legal reform right now, all coalition elements need to start coming together and understand that this is actually the direction.
But, if in the past you would have passed a draft or non-draft law under a certain public protest, take that, multiply it by years and a half x like this, like they do in high school equations, and you would get a very broad public protest. Because it is a non-draft law, in addition to the cancellation of the reason for the reasonableness, in addition to the spring pilot that created the feeling that the exclusion of women is becoming more and more powerful, add that to other events, including the light rail on Shabbat, and you get an event that is truly impossible.
Only dialogue between the coalition and the opposition will somehow succeed in lowering the level of flames surrounding the conscription law, and I don't see any opposition figure, neither Benny Gantz nor Yair Lapid, getting under the stretcher to try to help Netanyahu dismantle this very, very heavy bomb load.
Karen: Sherry, what is your assessment?
Shari: I'm a little less pessimistic, or optimistic, depending on who you ask. I don't see people in the Likud who might say in conversations, conversations like this and that, not in their name, but when the day comes, when they have to lift a finger, I don't see rebels in the Likud who would want to lend a hand in dissolving this government, which is good from their perspective. I also wouldn't be surprised if parts of the Arab parties support this law, because there is a brotherhood of minorities in the Knesset, we've seen that in many things, even now, by stopping the haredi budgets, they're trying to help them.
Karen: Without success, so far.
Shari: True, unfortunately. But it is possible that the Haredim will increase their efforts in this regard and there will be some kind of agreement between the parties. There is a brotherhood of minorities in the Knesset, and you see it in many things, I see it in the corridors of the Knesset, sometimes I even take pictures, and they are a little embarrassed. But there is. I remember at that time Ofer Kassif entered the United Torah Judaism room and spoke with Gafni like two friends and I asked them about it - and Ofer said to me, 'What are you surprised about? There are many, many summaries and deals between us.' Some of them are under the radar.
I do think so, and Netanyahu knows this by the way, if he doesn't go all out on the draft law, he won't have a government, at least some of the ultra-Orthodox will demand to leave and then they won't leave in parts, they'll all leave together. He understands this, and he knows this, and just as he went on the grounds of reasonableness despite the burning streets, I think he will go on it. The streets will burn, but we saw on the grounds of reasonableness that in the end it ended.
Yoav: No, it will bring in more audiences.
Keren: I think in the end, Sherry is right about her image, that Netanyahu doesn't care.
Sherry: What does 'don't care' mean? Listen, he has no choice. What's the alternative?
Keren: That's the feeling in recent months, that he will do it despite the protest.
Sherry: It's us who are stuck in traffic jams... right? His car isn't stuck in traffic jams...
Yoav: Everyone's...
Sherry: Yes, yes...
Keren: During a conversation, someone writes to me that, as for the springs, it turns out that there was already a pilot for separation at the springs. And it failed. Why? Because the Haredim didn't come. They allocated hours, and it turned out that there was no real demand for it. Because what happens? Unlike a pool, or even the sea, when you travel, you often travel as families and then there's no point, you don't want this separation at the spring. If you're already traveling, if you're already making the trip, the whole family is traveling. So there was a pilot, it didn't work.
Sherry: So as a family, I can't go to the springs. Listen, my sons simply don't agree. Not to the malls or the springs, it's impossible, it's not appropriate to stand in those sights. I don't know who's writing these things to you, but you need to ask all the Haredim, even those who don't exactly listen to the radio.
Keren: Yes, and as you say, it's really a question of whether the springs are the story.
Sherry: No, that's not the story, at this time.
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